The user fee is not a tax. It’s a fee you pay ssa for us to hold money back and pay attorneys. It’s a fee for us to process your fee and not have you collect directly from the attorney. It’s very cheap vs hiring a collections agency
I suspect we would be more grateful for the Administration withholding the attorney fees in exchange for the user fee if not for the following facts:
1. SSA is required to withhold 25% for payment of attorney fees as a matter of statute, and did so for decades without any such user fee, at least as to Title II.
2. Pretty sure the processing times for fee payments have gotten abysmally worse since the enactment of the user fee, not to say that I think those are related, it's just not a priority for SSA and given the agency has been underfunded in recent decades, we are not a priority.
3. Unless I am mistaken, the trust funds are invested in special-interest treasury securities, and unless SSA is literally segmenting fees into separate accounts by number, in reality withheld benefits are just sitting in the trust funds, accruing interest. There is no need for a user fee if that is the case.
I find it frustrating that the user fee cap goes up every year, but the rep fee payment cap goes up only once in a blue moon. You'd think that the user fee would be connected to the fee cap not the COLA.
@11:34 Actually, the user fee is just to cut the check. Remember that SSA still has to process fee petitions and determine the amount of the fee for free even if there is no money withheld for direct payment to representatives. Thus, the user fee is simply(and ONLY) for issuing 1 check and it's $117 to issue one check. Considering a person should be able to type up at least 10 checks in an hour, that works out to an hourly rate of $1,170. If SSA is paying their employees $1,170 per hour, then they are just recouping their operating costs; otherwise its a tax.
@8:38, Not sure you understand the PC and FO man-hours spent administering attorney fees, particularly multi-rep or fee-petition cases, using technology from the 1970s.
@838. It's not quite as simple as you think. If someone with high earnings files a disability claim and then gets a representative, does that mean the attorney is making $4K for the time spent completing just the representative forms?
@8:38 here. Calculating the past-due benefits, evaluating the fee petition, determining the amount of the past due benefits, calculating the amount of the fee; those are ALL part of what Social Security still has to do for FREE. The ONLY thing for which they are being paid the user fee is to ACTUALLY type and issue the check AFTER all the stuff they have to do for free is ALREADY done. Remember that if I don't ask to have my fee withheld, SSA will do for FREE all the stuff EXCEPT issue the check. Thus, don't be telling me that the fee covers all the stuff that specifically is to be done REGARDLESS of whether of not benefits are withheld and a user fee is paid. I'm sorry but I really can't see why it would take more than 6 minutes to type up and release a check AFTER the fee amount and entitlement to that fee amount has been determined, which as I explained, is done regardless of whether of not benefits are withheld and a user fee is charged.
If you are already entitled to free TV over the air waves and then are charged $100 for a pay per view movie, you can't claim that the $100 fee also covers the free TV you were entitled to regardless of whether or not you get the pay per view movie. The $100 is ONLY for the pay per view movie, which is the only thing you are getting EXTRA for paying the fee.
After everything else is done to pay back benefits, only then is any work necessary to calculate and pay the user fee. Essentially, the fee is for dividing the back benefits by 4 and sending that information to treasury. Yes, you have to remember to limit the fee to the cap if it applies. And that should be built into the system so it takes maybe two keystrokes to implement. Not the six minutes my colleague suggested, more like six seconds.
As to fee petitions, that does involve more work but according to SS information, that is less than 10% of all cases.
And if the technology requires you to spend more time than that on the fee processing, (Check to see 1696 is in file, verify address, coordinate with attorney ID, etc). then your problem with having proper system software to automate all of those things shouldn't be charged to the representative.
If one wishes to save the $117, simply avoid the direct payment process and make an agreement with your clients to collect your fee from them. Problem solved.
Yes, please collect from your claimants and leave the agency out of it and save your fee.
After all, we all know how reliable the claimants are. They always turn in paperwork on time and without issue, never forget to report changes of addresses or work starts or stoppages and they always turn in pay stubs.
I have no clue why you need the agency involved in processing your fees.
To 11:39 and 11:55, let's be clear that none of us ever asked SSA to be involved at all in the calculating, approving, or paying of our fees. We would be perfectly happy to have SSA issue a check with the attorney and claimant's name on it, so the they can both sign it, put it into the attorney's trust account and then divide up the proceeds, like is done in personal injury cases. SSA decided that it needs to protect client's from their own attorneys and thus chose to be involved in the minutiae of the attorney fee process. If SSA wants to be involved in the process then it needs to protect our fees.
The whole irony is that claimant's hire us after being unfairly denied by SSA, and then SSA is stepping in to review if WE are being fair to our clients. For those that say how do I know they were unfairly denied by SSA, the answer is because after I got involved they were approved, and that's why I earned my fee.
Imagine if attorneys would have to get their contingency fees approved by the insurance companies they are suing in personal injury cases. Sounds pretty absurd, huh? Exactly how is this different?
I wish attorneys got paid a flat minimum fee when there is no or very little retroactive T2 due. I've seen them file an appeal on the onset date which opened the medical decision to review. It's rare but I've seen a few be reopened to a denial. Those types of appeals are no risk for the attorney but a complete roll of dice for the claimants.
You're gonna keep paying it because the alternative is less desirable. Think of it as supplementing an agency all of you seem to think is underfunded by Congress. You're the tip of the spear of increased SSA budgets, and your claimant clients and everyone else thanks you for it.
@10:45, that's fine if I get upgraded service for my upgrade fee. Don't make me wait almost one year to get my fee petition approved and then have to call the district office (which no longer answers phones) to remind them to release my check. If I'm going to pay an upgrade fee for first class, don't keep giving me the same stale sandwich they serve in coach.
The user fee is not a tax. It’s a fee you pay ssa for us to hold money back and pay attorneys. It’s a fee for us to process your fee and not have you collect directly from the attorney. It’s very cheap vs hiring a collections agency
ReplyDeleteYou’re not wrong 😂
Delete"...not have you collect directly from the claimant."
ReplyDeleteIt also covers the cost of processing your fee petitions, even those that come in years after the Notice of Award was issued.
@10:42
ReplyDeleteI suspect we would be more grateful for the Administration withholding the attorney fees in exchange for the user fee if not for the following facts:
1. SSA is required to withhold 25% for payment of attorney fees as a matter of statute, and did so for decades without any such user fee, at least as to Title II.
2. Pretty sure the processing times for fee payments have gotten abysmally worse since the enactment of the user fee, not to say that I think those are related, it's just not a priority for SSA and given the agency has been underfunded in recent decades, we are not a priority.
3. Unless I am mistaken, the trust funds are invested in special-interest treasury securities, and unless SSA is literally segmenting fees into separate accounts by number, in reality withheld benefits are just sitting in the trust funds, accruing interest. There is no need for a user fee if that is the case.
I love this every year.
ReplyDeletePay it and stfu.
Dont like, practice another type of ambulance chasing.
I find it frustrating that the user fee cap goes up every year, but the rep fee payment cap goes up only once in a blue moon. You'd think that the user fee would be connected to the fee cap not the COLA.
ReplyDelete@11:34 Actually, the user fee is just to cut the check. Remember that SSA still has to process fee petitions and determine the amount of the fee for free even if there is no money withheld for direct payment to representatives. Thus, the user fee is simply(and ONLY) for issuing 1 check and it's $117 to issue one check. Considering a person should be able to type up at least 10 checks in an hour, that works out to an hourly rate of $1,170. If SSA is paying their employees $1,170 per hour, then they are just recouping their operating costs; otherwise its a tax.
ReplyDelete@8:38, Not sure you understand the PC and FO man-hours spent administering attorney fees, particularly multi-rep or fee-petition cases, using technology from the 1970s.
DeleteYou clearly have no idea how the process works . Please stop talking now.
Delete@838. It's not quite as simple as you think. If someone with high earnings files a disability claim and then gets a representative, does that mean the attorney is making $4K for the time spent completing just the representative forms?
Delete@8:38 here. Calculating the past-due benefits, evaluating the fee petition, determining the amount of the past due benefits, calculating the amount of the fee; those are ALL part of what Social Security still has to do for FREE. The ONLY thing for which they are being paid the user fee is to ACTUALLY type and issue the check AFTER all the stuff they have to do for free is ALREADY done. Remember that if I don't ask to have my fee withheld, SSA will do for FREE all the stuff EXCEPT issue the check. Thus, don't be telling me that the fee covers all the stuff that specifically is to be done REGARDLESS of whether of not benefits are withheld and a user fee is paid. I'm sorry but I really can't see why it would take more than 6 minutes to type up and release a check AFTER the fee amount and entitlement to that fee amount has been determined, which as I explained, is done regardless of whether of not benefits are withheld and a user fee is charged.
ReplyDeleteIf you are already entitled to free TV over the air waves and then are charged $100 for a pay per view movie, you can't claim that the $100 fee also covers the free TV you were entitled to regardless of whether or not you get the pay per view movie. The $100 is ONLY for the pay per view movie, which is the only thing you are getting EXTRA for paying the fee.
Nothing is free pal.
ReplyDeleteAfter everything else is done to pay back benefits, only then is any work necessary to calculate and pay the user fee. Essentially, the fee is for dividing the back benefits by 4 and sending that information to treasury. Yes, you have to remember to limit the fee to the cap if it applies. And that should be built into the system so it takes maybe two keystrokes to implement. Not the six minutes my colleague suggested, more like six seconds.
ReplyDeleteAs to fee petitions, that does involve more work but according to SS information, that is less than 10% of all cases.
And if the technology requires you to spend more time than that on the fee processing, (Check to see 1696 is in file, verify address, coordinate with attorney ID, etc). then your problem with having proper system software to automate all of those things shouldn't be charged to the representative.
If one wishes to save the $117, simply avoid the direct payment process and make an agreement with your clients to collect your fee from them. Problem solved.
ReplyDeleteYes, please collect from your claimants and leave the agency out of it and save your fee.
DeleteAfter all, we all know how reliable the claimants are. They always turn in paperwork on time and without issue, never forget to report changes of addresses or work starts or stoppages and they always turn in pay stubs.
I have no clue why you need the agency involved in processing your fees.
To 11:39 and 11:55, let's be clear that none of us ever asked SSA to be involved at all in the calculating, approving, or paying of our fees. We would be perfectly happy to have SSA issue a check with the attorney and claimant's name on it, so the they can both sign it, put it into the attorney's trust account and then divide up the proceeds, like is done in personal injury cases. SSA decided that it needs to protect client's from their own attorneys and thus chose to be involved in the minutiae of the attorney fee process. If SSA wants to be involved in the process then it needs to protect our fees.
ReplyDeleteThe whole irony is that claimant's hire us after being unfairly denied by SSA, and then SSA is stepping in to review if WE are being fair to our clients. For those that say how do I know they were unfairly denied by SSA, the answer is because after I got involved they were approved, and that's why I earned my fee.
Imagine if attorneys would have to get their contingency fees approved by the insurance companies they are suing in personal injury cases. Sounds pretty absurd, huh? Exactly how is this different?
What’s the percentage of benefits used for attorney fees on a personal injury case?
Delete@11:28
ReplyDelete33% to 40%. Not sure if it's the norm, I suspect it is, but our rule is 33% if it is settled prior to litigation, 40% if after litigation begins.
I wish attorneys got paid a flat minimum fee when there is no or very little retroactive T2 due. I've seen them file an appeal on the onset date which opened the medical decision to review. It's rare but I've seen a few be reopened to a denial. Those types of appeals are no risk for the attorney but a complete roll of dice for the claimants.
ReplyDeleteYou're gonna keep paying it because the alternative is less desirable. Think of it as supplementing an agency all of you seem to think is underfunded by Congress. You're the tip of the spear of increased SSA budgets, and your claimant clients and everyone else thanks you for it.
ReplyDelete@10:45, that's fine if I get upgraded service for my upgrade fee. Don't make me wait almost one year to get my fee petition approved and then have to call the district office (which no longer answers phones) to remind them to release my check. If I'm going to pay an upgrade fee for first class, don't keep giving me the same stale sandwich they serve in coach.
ReplyDeleteWonder where you can go to get first class service anywhere for $117
ReplyDelete