Social Security had been observing a 10 year time limit on collecting overpayments by recoupment from current benefit payments. That's over now. The agency has sent out instructions to its staff saying that once again there is no time limit on recouping overpayments. You can be retiring at age 67 and be told that you won't be paid now because you were overpaid when you were a child. This has happened before and will soon happen again, not in a few solated cases but as a matter of routine in many cases. Social Security has records of how much these alleged overpayments are but doesn't have records showing why these alleged overpayments happened or whether the claimant was ever given due process rights. The claimant is left with the daunting task of trying to get in touch with Social Security to explore what their rights are.
Mar 25, 2022
Social Security Is Back To The Position That There Are No Time Limits On Collecting Overpayments
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41 comments:
The great majority were told they were overpaid years ago, given due process, and just never paid it back.
Due to inflation most of these overpayments are no5 tha5 much in today’s dollars.
SSA needs these repaid , to help the trust fund.
The bar on collecting aged overpayments was rescinded in May 2021. This EM does not change policy; it is merely instructional guidance for technicians.
I am good with that.
@6:44AM I think one of the points of Charles' post was that SSA cannot prove anything you just claimed in a significant number of cases. Is it too much to ask that SSA prove it before collecting?
10:19 It's impossible to prove due process was sent, if the notice was sent prior to the date notices started being stored in ORS. Notices started being stored in ORS about 20 years ago.
Prior to that a copy of the due process notice was stored in the paper folder, but those paper folders are long since destroyed.
@10:39AM, well in that case, SSA should not be able to recover as they cannot substantiate that due process notice was given.
Appeal it or ask for a waiver. If the OP is present on the record, it will have to be addressed by 1) collection, 2) waiver or 3) appeal reversal of the initial decision. That's why these process exist.
Finding someone at SSA good at their job to actually process it correctly...well that's where the process falls apart.
Well, if SSA has the chance to "do the right thing" or something else, I guessing something else will be chosen.
What's unfair about paying back a debt from long ago? Would you prefer the other option--SSA taking action to garnish your wages, put a lien on any property you have, screw up your credit your whole life until it is repaid?
Ridiculous but not surprising.
Ridiculous because of the timing: 1. The economy is just coming off a severe pandemic 2. Costs are rising exponentially e.g. housing and gas.
I have seen other agencies really cracking down on recouping government money. The U.S. was handing out free money like candy during the pandemic. But those who committed fraud are getting caught more now.
The biggest problem in the welfare system is not that people once needed the money initially. It is people stay on too long when no longer needed. The SSA has tried to do this with CDRs. But CDRs seem like kind of a joke easily staying on disability. It is the same with other programs like Section 8, AFDC, food stamps, TANF, etc. People get hooked on the free money.
So I have no problem with the SSA eventually cracking down on those staying on too long.
But is this the right time? No it is not.
@1:17
How about when an absent parent got disability benefits incorrectly, received auxiliary benefits because they have kids, SSA recognized the error and applied an overpayment on the parent who died prior to seeking retirement benefits meaning the overpayment never got paid, and SSA informs the kids upon the kids' retirement, 5 decades later, that they owe an overpayment for money they never got?
That's literally what occurs. People are being forced to repay a debt for benefits they never received. Yes, there are plenty of arguments to try and fix this, but there is plenty unfair about the system as it is structured.
Also, absolutely garnishment would be a far more fair way of handling this, as opposed to springing it on people who have decided to retire. That's practically the WORST time to notify (or remind, assuming SSA ever told the kids, now adults) about the overpayment.
Too many assumptions that SSA never notified people. Notices are sent. When the offices were open, people would walk in and say "why did they reduce (or stop) my check", acting all innocent. I'd look at the record and tell them when the notice was sent, they have no response, just have a blank stare on their faces. They don't claim they never got the notice, because they did.
For sure, if the OP was money sent to someone else, they should appeal and would win. But if it was paid to your parent, and you lived with that parent, the assumption is you benefited from that money.
@301 PM
Very few overpayments of children fall into the category that they were living with someone else and did not benefit from the payments made to a parent on their behalf. Many are student benefits which were a disaster as far as implementing and paying correctly.
You are right that most children that receive benefits probably don't know they are being paid but they are in the household that did receive the money on their behalf. If they can't afford to repay it, the overpayment could be waived.
Even 50 years ago, SSA sent more than one letter to overpaid individuals asking for the money back. Ignoring the letter and failing to address the issue timely by the claimant is hardly a good reason to waive the overpayment.
If SSA can document proper and timely notice as well as documentation of how the op arose, fine. However, what I see mostly a complete lack of notice in even some recent cases. Further, the notices that are sent are abysmally hard to understand with some beneficiaries getting multiple, conflicting notices.It is completely against equity and good faith for SSA to collect these debts. Oh wait, SSA actually came up with their own definitions of "against equity and good faith". Talk about stacking the deck. As for documentation, SSA very rarely has documentation of anything or they rely on small print in some obscure pamphlet they sent out years earlier. The SSA method of collecting op begs for a class action suit.
If a CSR/CS gets a waiver for a child/student overpayment from forever ago, and doesn't waive it, they're garbage.
However, if the debt is from long ago SGA or fraud, tough luck. Just because it took forever to collect the debt doesn't make you any less responsible for it.
At this point, any overpayment from prior to 1984 should be blanket waived. We have had a recent retiree bring in a letter her 96ish year old mother kept showing that we waived the overpayment, but for whatever reason ROAR was not properly updated. Had it not been for this letter, who knows what the outcome would have been.
I don't think SSA should EVER be able to collect from from anyone who was a minor or for a parent's account. Obviously, I don't mean a guardianship case. I mean what a parent collected on their behalf when they were a minor. The child likely had no say on the application, or the use of funds. Maybe if they were 16-17 at the time and you can prove they lied on the application...
The comment that the overpayment notices are hard to understand is not accurate. The first paragraph of the overpayment notice says “we paid you $xxxx too much in benefits”. That’s pretty east to understand.
The actual explanation of how the overpayment occurred may be more muddy especially if it’s from week in the past. However, most capable CS’s or TE’s can figure it out and explain how it occurred with some research.
I know many people here would love SSA to just ignore overpayments and just let people have money but the program would never be able to be sustained that way. Most overpayments are valid whether you want to believe it or not.
1010 here, yeah sure a notice will give you a number but then a lot of times the claimant then gets another, conflicting letter with a different amount. Explanations are almost non-existent;"muddy" is way too complimentary. If SSA can prove the claim, then they should collect as long as they give proper due process and not some beauracratic version that stacks the deck against the claimants. Further there should be some type of statute of limitation on theses claims. Think about a latches theory.
Should there be a statute of limitation on underpayments?
Re SSA defining against equity and good conscience... I believe Congress defined that in the SSA act.
@1249,
1010 replying as to a limitation on underpayments, yes there should be parity.
As to the statutory language, yes congress put the language in BUT it was the Secretary (now Commissioner) who defined the term "equity and good faith" in the regulations. It would be interesting to look at the Congressional record to see if the current definition comports with Congressional intent. I don't have the time now, but one never knows what the future holds.
“Equity and Good Conscience” only applies to waivers and ONLY gets developed after an “at fault” determination. So if the claimant is at fault, development is done…waiver denied.
I personally don’t know anyone who denies waivers for children who got benefits in error because of something to do with the primary wage earner in the record. Especially children not living in the same household with the wage earner.
Again, most overpayments are valid whether you like it or not.
It is not a matter of liking it or not, it is a matter of due process. If SSA can prove the claim within a REASONABLE period time, then have at it. Just do it fairly and competently.
I have a special affinity for overpayment cases because they are SO unjust to the recipient. I can't tell you how many letters for OP I've seen where the explanations are incoherent or just straight up not included in the letter, where the amount to be recouped is inconsistent even within the notice, where the recipient was absolutely not at fault and yet has to go to conference to prove that they, for example, tried to return the extra money and got told to hold onto it, where waiver requests got confused with reconsideration requests and got "lost"...a terrifying amount of OPs are not processed correctly, and it's heartless not to realize that this stress and financial instability is terrible for the mental health of vulnerable disability recipients.
Currently, I'm dealing with a case where an ALJ waived the OP last year and then SSA went around and tried to collect it again because someone at the processing center never opened the document.
Due process is in the letter of overpayment. I’m not sure what you mean. So if a person is illiterate and can read the notice sent, does that mean they can’t be charged with the overpayment?
732 I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but the letters that SSA sends out are a bunch of boiler plate paragraphs strung together and even then they are sometimes not in the right order. Further, the amounts in those letters often change without any cogent explanation. There is minimal due process and yes, for due process notice to actually meet due process requirements, it has to be meaningful notice. If someone is illiterate, does not speak English, has a mental or cognitive impairment, then SSA notices do not constitute due process notice as they are currently issued.
In addition, the complete lack of any documentation in most cases also violates due process standards.
We won't even get into the way the "knew or should have known" standard is applied.
The whole op process is shameful.
Go after the op, but do it in a timely, completely transparent manner. Is that so hard to do?
Emily, I agree with you 100%.
Some here don't seem to understand some basics of overpayments. If SSA told the person to hold on to the money rather than repay it, and they later get a letter asking for the money, what is the issue?
Re recons and waivers being mixed up, when a recon is filed and there's a statement that they can't afford to repay, hello waiver. Likewise a waiver may claim the overpayment is not correct.
Because if SSA told people to hold onto money when they try to return it, people spend that money. And waivers don't get applied automatically, people usually have to affirmatively ask for them, and SSA is providing money to people who are often 1) cognitively disabled 2) mentally ill 3) elderly and not computer literate.
So many SSA employees on this blog are so heartless about the people they supposedly serve. You aren't dealing with the average population. You're dealing with the poor, sick and underresourced.
308 you kind of prove our argument. Why are request for waivers separate from request for recons? It only confuses people and that is what the Agency wants. The lack of transparency is astounding. A program meant to help the most vulnerable in society should not place the burden on them. Shameful.
Emily,
If someone files an appeal, and in the appeal writing they say the OP is not their fault or they can't pay it back, that appeal can be treated as a waiver.
As for people being cognitively impaired or mentally ill or elderly (which is not a disabling condition in itself)...this highlights the importance of payee development doesn't it? Which opens up a whole other can of worms with respect to overpayments.
SSA is full of employees on government welfare...just coming in a collecting a check, which puts a tremendous strain on those of us trying to do the best we can.
I am completely overwhelmed and overworked. I am literally the only trained CS in my office. Everyone else has quit or retired during the pandemic. I will not do overtime because I refuse to give any more time to and agency that doesn't care about me or the public.
I'm not heartless...I'm exhausted
256, I don't think that in reality the problem is the employees, especially ones that are giving their all during very difficult times. The problem is the underlying ethos of SSA that went from truly caring about the claimants to caring about statistics and numbers. SSA needs a complete reset but I am not going to hold my breath.
Disabled claimants are a minority of SSA claimants. Most are receiving RSI benefits and can understand some aspects of overpayments. Some can't and SSA should make efforts to explain how overpayments occurred and how to avoid them. Ignorance usually has no bearing on how laws are applied.
@245 reconsiderations are decided by payment centers while waivers are decided on field offices. Use of the incorrect form does delay processing but doesn't mean the request won't be decided.
Few are so jaded (and wrong) that they think forms are purposely confusing.
2:56 PM/3:34 PM. So, are you both basically saying, "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence?" We understand that many of you are overworked and SSA is "underfunded..." But, why did these "overpaments" exist in the first place? Why did they last so long? Could better, easier to apply rules, lead to fewer "overpayments." SSA should tell Congress, "We can't administer the law as written. You need to make these changes to make it easier, cheaper, and fairer to administer. We CAN'T ethically and morally collect these overpayments that YOUR LAWS CAUSE." "We will, however, collect where the claimant has provable wrongdoing," such as willful failure to report income.
@ Tim Overpayments of kids and students last so long because they didn't repay them when they were notified as young adults. Once they are not being paid it isn't easy to find them and if they don't respond, there is little SSA can do until they file much later.
RE students overpayments--rules were made easier by doing away with the program for college students. Most student overpayments, all that I ever saw, were failure to report they had left college or were no longer full time in college.
I'm completely overwhelmed and overworked too. I have to do overtime too to serve my clients, who may not be impaired enough to need a payee but still need assistance navigating the byzantine SSA system with an inaccessible phone system. This isn't the fault of employees who are working hard, but good God are there a lot of commenters on this blog who insist that disabled people should bootstraps their way through the POMS when there's no way that's plausible.
1220, they are not hard to find if they are working. SSA can easily find out generally where these people are long before they go to retire 40 years later. That is what is so egregious about the collection of ancient op. Even if they are not working, SSA has the means to track them down.
@300PM
Tracking down people if they are working isn't all that easy. The overpaid person is now working for Fed-Ex or some other large employer. It may be possible to get the contact information from the employer but not sure that can be done just to collect an overpayment. Granted it wouldn't be hard to try and locate a person if they work for a very small employer. SSA will never have current year work info having to rely on the previous year(s) W2s.
I have successfully tracked down people to file for benefits for themselves or their children and it can be time consuming to find the person.
If large (or really any size) employers are as cooperative in giving contact information as they are in verifying medical insurance coverage for Medicate/EGHP, there may not be many contacts made.
If the person hasn't worked lately, you may be able to find them on the internet but the problem there is you have to be pretty sure it's the same person. Sending overpayment letters to the wrong people isn't a good strategy.
For an agency with a lack of funds, tracking down overpaid people isn't the best use of their resources.
I have an idea…why don’t we just have SSA waive everyone’s overpayments and then just get rid of any rules that cause overpayments so they are never an issue again. We can just pay people whatever they want and if it’s no right for some reason, any reason, don’t worry, it’s in Uncle Sam.
Heck, just get rid of all the rules and just pay people. It’s much easier and everyone will be happy. Rules are oppressive anyway.
926 great straw man argument. No one is saying don't collect op, just do it in a timely manner with transparency.
528 You are actually making a good argument to bar stale claims. SSA has the means to give timely notice but it is too much trouble. The real problem here is that SSA as an entity does not understand due process, or rather understands it but can't be bothered to apply it.
@200
Why bar overpayment collections? No one would ever repay if waiting it out was a strategy that worked.
SSA sends letters with due process for overpayments. Ignoring the requests for repayment for 40 years doesn't mean due process wasn't given. Granted the letters could be more clear.
Waiting 40 years during which documentary evidence, including notations on SSAs electronic records, is destroyed or lost is a due process violation.
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