And Yet Disability Determination At Social Security Is Premised Upon Belief That Unskilled Manufacturing Jobs Are As Plentiful Today As They Were 40 Years Ago
Maybe not, but the population is running around utilizing cell phones that are actually multitasking computers may argue the point whether there are many unskilled people running around either.. Do you know how complex these video games are?
Hate to break it to you 8:55 but most of my clients don't have a computer let alone a smartphone. Also knowing how to send a text message doesn't make a person ready to operate a fancy machine.
In 1990, the manufacturing industry was the leading employer in most U.S. states, followed by retail trade. In 2003, retail trade was the leading employer in a majority of states. By 2013, health care and social assistance was the dominant industry in 34 states.
The good thing about social assistance jobs is that they generally are very good about hiring those with disabilities. Peer to Peer work in social services shows those with disability how to mover forward, provides support and ideas for working around and with a disability. Social services/assistance jobs are not high paying, those individuals are most commonly in the work for the outcome not the income.
8:55 AM. I've never owned a smartphone and hardly ever play video games (less than 5 minutes a month, if that!) They hurt my hands (arthritis)! Every job I've ever had required 3 things I can no longer do: standing, reaching and use of hands! Sitting too long is problematic, too. Of course, if you give me a recliner that's too comfortable, I will have trouble staying awake!
Manufacturing jobs are gone for ever. The days of a good union assembly line job making over $60,000/year are a thing of the past. Being unskilled is no longer a viable option. Personal responsibility comes into play and people are going to have to keep up with the times or be buried by them. I am not saying everyone has to go through and get a masters degree, but they do have to be trained into a skill. Apprenticeship programs need to come back, welding and HVAC all have openings in every state and cannot fill the positions. Is it right for every person? Of course not. But for many it is a living, perhaps not the living they once made, but I don't remember anything that says you have to make a great living. Given free will people have the right to fail.
There are not unskilled sedentary jobs anymore. The VE's disagree on whether there are actually unskilled jobs with a sit stand option. Additionally, jobs in the local or regional economy no longer have to be identified, so 70,000 ticket takers in the national economy seems like a lot, but I'm 70 years old, and I've never met a ticket taker. The people who take tickets do other things as well. As a country, we do have to do a better job of taking care of the least among us.
There are literally millions of envelope stuffer jobs that could be performed by anyone.This is a job that should be categorized as sedentary and unskilled, but the DOT foolishly has it listed as light and semi skilled
@1:47....there are not millions of people working full-time as envelope stuffers. Either they are doing other work and it's a composite job (probably with a lot more complex work than envelope-stuffing) or they are overseeing an envelope-stuffing machine.
Show me the job ads hiring people who literally sit (or have a SSO) and stuff envelopes 40 hours a week. And none of this "you can make $80,000 a year at home!" fake ad crap, and no sheltered work with a job coach and subminimum wage, either.
Please do share exactly where these millions of envelope stuff jobs are!! I dare you to back that up. You can not because it is not true. Even SSA uses mailing centers where notices are done by machine. If there were simple unskilled jobs that impaired claimants could perform, they would be doing them. People want to work. Applying for disability is not a choice not to work. It is a last resort.
@12:00p, apprenticleships are very difficult to get in to. You have to score the highest on the placement tests. If you are over 25, forget it. Also, there is a reason their is a high demand for these apprentice jobs. It is due to high turnover. The Amish had it right, you get a career that allows self employment. Become a farmer, a farrier, a flutemaker, etc. Escape corporate american life.
a finding of non-disability has VERY little to do with whether jobs are plentiful. The test is "significant number of jobs in the national economy." Significant is vague, but generally, a few thousand jobs that EXIST nationally is sufficient.
This does not means the jobs are AVAILABLE, it only means that they exist. Whether or not a person is able to find employment is literally irrelevant in disability determinations.
"This does not means the jobs are AVAILABLE, it only means that they exist. Whether or not a person is able to find employment is literally irrelevant in disability determinations"
One could dicker about some Circuit case law that makes SSA take into account what could be called ability to find employment, but generally 7:42 is correct and it's a shame. Two other huge things we do not consider but should: the claimant's criminal record and the claimant's meaningful proximity to/ability to get to and from the jobs we'll say exist in significant numbers we expect them to go get.
@7:57 Nope. The consideration is if a Claimant is disabled and unable to perform substantial gainful activity due to a medical condition. A criminal record has no bearing on the medical/psychological ability to perform SGA. We are deciding ability to work, not employability.
9:41 AM has it right. Whether you agree with it or not, the Social Security Act focuses on one's ability/inability to do jobs based on medically determinable impairments.
- It's not a welfare program for people who can't work because employers won't hire them based on their criminal records. - It's not for people who can't find work because they fail drug screens. - It's not for people who can't find work because they happen to live in a poor rural community with limited job prospects.
If there are circuit courts that require SSA to consider whether a claimant can actually get a job, and not just whether it exists, then they aren't applying the Social Security Act. What they're doing is legislating an entirely different federal welfare program from the bench.
So it has not been updated since 1991 but realistically not since the 1970s. Sooooo much has changed in the workplace since then.
The main thing is the rise of the tech industry and fall of the manufacturing industry.
Agree w/ 11:09. Not everybody over 50 is tech savvy. I was born in the 1970s. My parents were always very tech savvy or into computers. But I was probably the exception.
Now I understand personal responsibility has to come into play. But the world is changing so fast some people (especially those over 50) find it difficult to keep up.
Interesting that two folks were so quick to say my belief that criminal record and ability to actually get a job shouldn't count. Reference that program is for people unable to work physically/mentally.
Ok, let's unpack that. Seems like you think my categories shouldn't be considered because they are the result of choice.
But what about the lazy unhealthy claimant that let his diabetes, hypertension, etc. get out of control because he couldn't bother to get up and move/stop eating just enough to keep his weight, I dunno, short of even 300 pounds? No choices there, or would you not want to count impairments for folks who might've been able to do more about them?
There's not as much choice with the criminal/location stuff as you two seem to think and more choice than you want to admit with things you seem happy to consider as foisted on folks.
Look, I represent claimants for a living and even I don't think we should consider criminal record in a disability determination. I know it's hard for a person with a felony conviction to get a job, which is a problem in our society, but I don't think you can equate that to medical disability.
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11:49 AM Age is understandable... to an extent. However, the 55+ rules are skewed nearly as much for the claimants as the under 50 are against. What I am not in favor of is rewarding those who are not "fluent" in English, unless perhaps accompanied by an intellectual disability.
Ticket taker is light and unskilled. It was last updated in the DOT in 1980. Ticket takers at my theater do other things as well. All the people I know who take tickets do other things as well, and those things are not light or unskilled.
24 comments:
"Plentiful" does not equate to "significant numbers" as defined by Social Security, unfortunately.
Maybe not, but the population is running around utilizing cell phones that are actually multitasking computers may argue the point whether there are many unskilled people running around either.. Do you know how complex these video games are?
Hate to break it to you 8:55 but most of my clients don't have a computer let alone a smartphone. Also knowing how to send a text message doesn't make a person ready to operate a fancy machine.
In 1990, the manufacturing industry was the leading employer in most U.S. states, followed by retail trade. In 2003, retail trade was the leading employer in a majority of states. By 2013, health care and social assistance was the dominant industry in 34 states.
The good thing about social assistance jobs is that they generally are very good about hiring those with disabilities. Peer to Peer work in social services shows those with disability how to mover forward, provides support and ideas for working around and with a disability. Social services/assistance jobs are not high paying, those individuals are most commonly in the work for the outcome not the income.
8:55 AM. I've never owned a smartphone and hardly ever play video games (less than 5 minutes a month, if that!) They hurt my hands (arthritis)! Every job I've ever had required 3 things I can no longer do: standing, reaching and use of hands! Sitting too long is problematic, too. Of course, if you give me a recliner that's too comfortable, I will have trouble staying awake!
Manufacturing jobs are gone for ever. The days of a good union assembly line job making over $60,000/year are a thing of the past. Being unskilled is no longer a viable option. Personal responsibility comes into play and people are going to have to keep up with the times or be buried by them. I am not saying everyone has to go through and get a masters degree, but they do have to be trained into a skill. Apprenticeship programs need to come back, welding and HVAC all have openings in every state and cannot fill the positions. Is it right for every person? Of course not. But for many it is a living, perhaps not the living they once made, but I don't remember anything that says you have to make a great living. Given free will people have the right to fail.
There are not unskilled sedentary jobs anymore. The VE's disagree on whether there are actually unskilled jobs with a sit stand option. Additionally, jobs in the local or regional economy no longer have to be identified, so 70,000 ticket takers in the national economy seems like a lot, but I'm 70 years old, and I've never met a ticket taker. The people who take tickets do other things as well.
As a country, we do have to do a better job of taking care of the least among us.
Margaret, you are 70 and never been to a movie??
Here's a problem with the DOT:
There are literally millions of envelope stuffer jobs that could be performed by anyone.This is a job that should be categorized as sedentary and unskilled, but the DOT foolishly has it listed as light and semi skilled
@1:47....there are not millions of people working full-time as envelope stuffers. Either they are doing other work and it's a composite job (probably with a lot more complex work than envelope-stuffing) or they are overseeing an envelope-stuffing machine.
Show me the job ads hiring people who literally sit (or have a SSO) and stuff envelopes 40 hours a week. And none of this "you can make $80,000 a year at home!" fake ad crap, and no sheltered work with a job coach and subminimum wage, either.
Please do share exactly where these millions of envelope stuff jobs are!! I dare you to back that up. You can not because it is not true. Even SSA uses mailing centers where notices are done by machine. If there were simple unskilled jobs that impaired claimants could perform, they would be doing them. People want to work. Applying for disability is not a choice not to work. It is a last resort.
@12:00p, apprenticleships are very difficult to get in to. You have to score the highest on the placement tests. If you are over 25, forget it. Also, there is a reason their is a high demand for these apprentice jobs. It is due to high turnover. The Amish had it right, you get a career that allows self employment. Become a farmer, a farrier, a flutemaker, etc. Escape corporate american life.
a finding of non-disability has VERY little to do with whether jobs are plentiful. The test is "significant number of jobs in the national economy." Significant is vague, but generally, a few thousand jobs that EXIST nationally is sufficient.
This does not means the jobs are AVAILABLE, it only means that they exist. Whether or not a person is able to find employment is literally irrelevant in disability determinations.
"This does not means the jobs are AVAILABLE, it only means that they exist. Whether or not a person is able to find employment is literally irrelevant in disability determinations"
One could dicker about some Circuit case law that makes SSA take into account what could be called ability to find employment, but generally 7:42 is correct and it's a shame. Two other huge things we do not consider but should: the claimant's criminal record and the claimant's meaningful proximity to/ability to get to and from the jobs we'll say exist in significant numbers we expect them to go get.
@7:57 Nope. The consideration is if a Claimant is disabled and unable to perform substantial gainful activity due to a medical condition. A criminal record has no bearing on the medical/psychological ability to perform SGA. We are deciding ability to work, not employability.
It should never involve employability.
9:41 AM has it right. Whether you agree with it or not, the Social Security Act focuses on one's ability/inability to do jobs based on medically determinable impairments.
- It's not a welfare program for people who can't work because employers won't hire them based on their criminal records.
- It's not for people who can't find work because they fail drug screens.
- It's not for people who can't find work because they happen to live in a poor rural community with limited job prospects.
If there are circuit courts that require SSA to consider whether a claimant can actually get a job, and not just whether it exists, then they aren't applying the Social Security Act. What they're doing is legislating an entirely different federal welfare program from the bench.
The DOT is an SSA embarrassment.
So it has not been updated since 1991 but realistically not since the 1970s. Sooooo much has changed in the workplace since then.
The main thing is the rise of the tech industry and fall of the manufacturing industry.
Agree w/ 11:09. Not everybody over 50 is tech savvy. I was born in the 1970s. My parents were always very tech savvy or into computers. But I was probably the exception.
Now I understand personal responsibility has to come into play. But the world is changing so fast some people (especially those over 50) find it difficult to keep up.
Interesting that two folks were so quick to say my belief that criminal record and ability to actually get a job shouldn't count. Reference that program is for people unable to work physically/mentally.
Ok, let's unpack that. Seems like you think my categories shouldn't be considered because they are the result of choice.
But what about the lazy unhealthy claimant that let his diabetes, hypertension, etc. get out of control because he couldn't bother to get up and move/stop eating just enough to keep his weight, I dunno, short of even 300 pounds? No choices there, or would you not want to count impairments for folks who might've been able to do more about them?
There's not as much choice with the criminal/location stuff as you two seem to think and more choice than you want to admit with things you seem happy to consider as foisted on folks.
Look, I represent claimants for a living and even I don't think we should consider criminal record in a disability determination. I know it's hard for a person with a felony conviction to get a job, which is a problem in our society, but I don't think you can equate that to medical disability.
Why should we consider age, then?
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BORROWERS APPLICATION DETAILS
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2. Telephone Numbers:……….
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5. Repayment Period:………..
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11:49 AM Age is understandable... to an extent. However, the 55+ rules are skewed nearly as much for the claimants as the under 50 are against. What I am not in favor of is rewarding those who are not "fluent" in English, unless perhaps accompanied by an intellectual disability.
Ticket taker is light and unskilled. It was last updated in the DOT in 1980. Ticket takers at my theater do other things as well. All the people I know who take tickets do other things as well, and those things are not light or unskilled.
Like sweeping floors, picking up trash in the theater, dishing up popcorn? Seems like unskilled light to me...
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